Wellington HZ355 from 429 Squadron

You are working hard ! Lots of places to check. You may want to ask our member Macrusk too. Michelle has a tremendous number of Canadian website addresses in her files .

 

Searched the London Archives on-line and found a listing for a British POW that was killed at Stalag 4B, Muhlberg. I should find out in about a week how much!

When I spoke to my Uncle I asked him about the Interview and what all that he covered and he said it's worth a try to look in the War Crimes section. So I sent off for Witness Statements on him in those sections.

Our talk...
In the fall of 1944, he was called in camp. Did not know where he was going. Transported to Buchenwald in Box Train, 40 and 8. Travel took about one day. No food. There were approximately 6 POW’s loaded into train that were from Muhlberg. No one spoke to each other much on the train. He believes that the other POW’s were also sent for punishment probably for escapes. The train made 2 stops along the way and picked up several others but not more than 4 or 5 people.

When he arrived, the train was by the camp. He did not see front gates. Sent to shower, delouse and shave. His clothes taken away and he was given the blue and white striped shirt and pants. He was also given wooden clogs that were noisy and uncomfortable. He was not told how long he would be there. He did not really stay around anyone in particular while there.

Where he was he saw the “Gardening Detail” area.

He saw Ilse Koch once walking by the outside of the fence.

They had roll call twice a day. They had to line up in 5’s. (He counted off in German to me.) One guard would count off and a second guard behind the first had a clipboard. There was a whipping block in the roll call area.

He did not know there was a Zoo, Cinema, or Brothel there. (He was curious about these and I looked it up for him.)

(When I spoke to him in 2000 he told me that he saw the Crematorium. I told him that I had seen pictures of piles of bodies there and he said that what I had seen in the pictures, he saw. He had told me about the Horse stables where the Russians were kept. He said it was horrible what was done to them. He said a lot were tortured and killed in the stables. He described a lot to me in 2000 and I felt that he knew a lot about these stables at the time.)

He went to the infirmary once when he scalded his hand and saw an Italian Doctor. He commented that the Germans did not like Italians.

One day a guard came up and called his name. He followed, given back the same clothes that he came in with, loaded on a train and taken back to Muhlberg. Several others went back to Muhlberg also but he doesn’t remember much during this time. He said something about Newbergsdorf (sounded like) on way back in the train. When they arrived back at Muhlberg, they showered, deloused and shaved at Vor lager then released into Camp the next day.

He was back from Buchenwald before Christmas, he believes a few weeks before Christmas. He remembers spending 2 Christmas holidays in Muhlberg.

He wondered where I had gotten so much information on Buchenwald and I told him about the book, The Buchenwald Report. I described the book to him and what it contained. He asked several questions and I looked up several things for him. He told me that he has a small list of men that had been there, the ones from Fresnes but not a large list. I offered to send the book if he would like to see it and he said he would think about it but not right now.

He told me that the there was a traitor that was in Muhlberg had a secret trial in Camp and was found guilty of crimes (Treason I'm guessing). He was executed and dropped into the latrine. The Germans never found out. He did not see this happen but was told about it after it happened.

He remembers while at Muhlberg a rather large group of Danish Police prisoners arrived. Met some but did not spend time with them. He heard that all Police Officers were put in the camps.

We talked about the Berlin Air Lift Operation that he was at in 1949 when he was the U.S. Air Force at that time.

I did a lot of reading, War Crimes and such and learned that there was a directive from March 1944 that POW's that escaped were to be sent to Mauthausen. (Kugel Erlass "Bullet Decree") www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/kugel.htm

Very interesting.


Jo Ann

 

Some very interesting elements here.

Many Danish police officers were sent to Buchenwald and Muhlberg. You might want to get in touch with the Danes, they have an Association too. These men were among the finest. They were al policmean and massively refused to arrest jews and were all deported by the Germans. They were very pious and would sing and and help and encourage other inmates. I have a great respect for them.

from Wikipedia:

On 12 May 1944, Dr. Werner Best demanded that the Danish police take over the task of protecting 57 specific enterprises against sabotage from the Danish resistance movement, which was growing in strength. Should the Danish civil service[2] not accept this, the Danish police force would be reduced to 3,000 men. The head of the Danish administration, Nils Svenningsen, was inclined to accept this demand, but the organizations of the Danish police were opposed to the idea. The German request was ultimately turned down, and this was reported to Werner Best on 6 June 1944. This reduced the Gestapo's already limited trust in the Danish police even further.



The German army began arresting members of the Danish police in Denmark's main cities on 19 September 1944. In 1944, the Danish police force had a total of 10,000 men.[3] 1,960 of these were arrested and later deported to the Neuengamme concentration camp.[4] The policemen were deported to Buchenwald in two groups. One of the groups went September 29, the other group got transferred October 5, 1944. On December 16, 1604 of the Danish policemen were transferred from Buchenwald to Mühlberg (Stammlager or Stalag IV-B), a camp for prisoners of war, because of pressure from the Danish administration. That meant an improvement of the situation for the Danish policemen. The difference between concentration camps and camps for prisoners of war was, that in concentration camps the inmates were without legal rights.[5] But if an inmate was recognized as prisoner of war, that could imply some kind of protection due to the international conventions for prisoners of war.[6]
After that the policemen were scattered somewhat on various work commands.

 

more about Buchenwald

"My Story" by Stephen P. Casey, Hungarian Holocaust Survivor living in Australia

 

Skipper,

I did a lot of reading yesterday! Very good information. So we know definately that my Uncle was back in Muhlberg by December 16, 1944 because he remembers them coming in.

We had a good time talking yesterday.

When my Uncle was transferred to Buchenwald and back he was taken by the German Army Guards and not the SS. He did not receive any type of colored band or triangle while he was at Buchenwald. He said that he didn't know whether that was good or bad because he didn't have one. No picture taken there but he said he thinks his camp ID/registration card was brought with the guard.

When he returned to Muhlberg he met with the Kommandant and was told that it was no longer a game and measures taken again might be final.

He said his longest time on the run was about a month and he ate mainly chocolate bars that he had stored for energy and potatoes. He said that people stored potatoes in holes in the ground and would cover them with layers of straw and dirt. He said they were easy to find and he would take between 5 or 10 of them at a time. He would not cook on the run because of the smoke. He said his scouting experience helped him with living outside on the run. No one in Germany helped him but people in Czech and Yugoslavia gave food to him.

He will not eat cabbage, turnips or sauerkraut again. Can't stand it.

He said the biggest piece of shrapnel was about the size of a walnut that Dr. Dexters removed. He said when he gets together with the guys he can't show off his war wounds because most of the shrapnel went into his backside! They joke with him and say that he was hit running away and he answers your dam right, I spent a lot of time running.

After the war when he was on his way home to visit, he stopped somewhere in New York to get some food and a man and woman were seated close by. The woman noticed his uniform and asked her husband why it had Canada and USA on his uniform. Her husband explained it to her and she became irrate and highly verbal saying how dare he go to Canada and join up in the service. Because of him, her son got drafted into the Navy. My uncle just got up and left.

He said he made a box type thing in Muhlberg out of aluminum and decorated it. Sandy Adams from Muhlberg took it to the Imperial War Museum.

When he was discharged from the RCAF he was a Flying Officer, 1st Lt. He could have stayed in but he wanted to go to college. He got his Associate Degree in Business Administration and then enlisted with the US Air Force. When he enlisted in the US Air Force they did not accept his time with the RCAF and he had to start all over. He retired as a Master Sgt. in 1974. Throughout his service he went to college and got his Bachelors of Art in History.

He had heard a story while at Muhlberg that the Kommandant at Stalag Luft 1 offered to any escapee that if they made it out of Germany that he would personally give them a bottle of champagne. After the war the Kommandant came to one of the Stalag Luft 1 reunions.

My notebook (4 inch binder) that I'm sending him is stuffed with information.

I'm still going over the video of him as time permits.

Jo Ann

 

Good news, I am currently searching the Canadian archives for you and I may have some more soon. The reading is as fascinating as ever. ! I like te little details like the turnip and cabbage stories.

 

Question,

Do you know of any information on the Felix line of escape from Belgium? I have seen a mention for the Felix-Burgundy line but I believe that the Burgundy line was in France.

It seems like there were a lot of escape lines but not much documentation on them or they were destroyed. It would be dangerous to keep them and since so many people were arrested that the information would be gone with them. So many stories are never going to be able to be told.

Also trying to find more information on Helper Jean Colemont in Liege. Just wondering...I have searched the web and not much luck. Wondering if there is a historical society in Liege too.

Canadian Archives!!!! Sounds good!!!

Jo Ann

 

hi Jo ann, I was away tonight as a friend called me about a Omaha beach relic, so I couldn't resist.
I will have more about the Canadian archives soon , it's just a matter of time and I need to get some rest before I go back to work tomorrow. I will get home early though and I have printed the links which I will be able to forward to you.
The Felix line was in Burgundy, I will have to check but I believe it was a link between Belgium and the "free zone" in France.

 

Skipper,

No rush!

Uncle and I talked quite a while today. From the Etienne House in Liege he was offered 2 ways to go:
1: Go to Namur, Belgium then onto Charleroi, Belgium, where he take 9 months to reach England or go
2: With a new contact (DeZitter) that he did not know much about that promised to get my Uncle to England in 30 days.

My Uncle chose the quick route!

We covered a lot of topics today and he told me about Nanking which I had never heard about. Very shocking!

I am reading about 5 different books right now and trying to keep track!

Jo Ann

 

I got an email from London Archives and the information on Stalag 4B Muhlberg, the killing of a British POW there is in the mail (10 pages).

Nothing back yet on my Uncle.

Jo Ann

 

Canadian archives about Buchenwald with 4mn airmen interview!

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/diary/2diary/luckyones

and here is the complete 72 mn document

http://www.nfb.ca/collection/films/fiche/?id=30945

 

Skipper,

Thank you. I watched the clip and tried to see if it could be ordered but no. It would be interesting to watch. Just about finished with one book and still reading about 3 others right now!

My Uncle should be getting his notebooks that I put together for him today. I'm sure after going over all the information he will have more for me.

I found a website about the RAF Czech Airmen and emailed him. He responded and will try and find the man from Stalag 4B that escaped with my Uncle!!!!!
http://czechoslovak-squadrons.webgarden.cz/

From the London Archives:
Section WO 204/11505 (War Crimes) Message that the file was too big to search and would have to be done by hand. I contacted a researcher and will see what it all entails. I haven't given up on finding the information.

I figured out the entry on my Uncle being at Luft 3. There was an initial entry for RAF POW's made and later a corrected one made. I have a Post Card from my Uncle while he was at Stalag 4B and it is stamped with Luft 3. My Grandma saved the instructions she received about sending letters and parcels to POW's and in it it says that all mail going to and from the POW's are checked through Luft 3 by the Germans. So initally it was reported that he was there and corrected later. I sent for the list of RCAF POW's and have the original list along with the corrected list of men. (I will put a copy of the postcard in my gallery.)

Still waiting on the information on the POW that was killed in Stalag 4B. I should have done it by email!!!! Anxious!!!

I am working on getting all of my Uncle's Operation Missions (16 of them) from March 1943 through June 1943. I also want to map those out. He doesn't know the names of all of them or the dates but I am working on figuring it out.

I asked him yesterday where he was when he heard about Pearl Harbor and he told me that he was in Canada and doing Guard Duty (he said that was what their basic training included) and it was on a Sunday. There was no alcohol on Sunday's so he and a few buddies hitch-hiked about an hour away and the cars he got rides in did not have radios. When he got to a bar the Check-in girl noticed his uniform that had USA on it and said "Well you Yanks are in it now!" and he was like what do you mean and she told him about the radio report. He asked her where a radio was and she told him upstairs. He ran upstairs (which was the owner's home) and bust in with his buddies and they all sat around the radio listening. He said that he got there and listed from the Second Wave on. When they eventually went downstairs to the bar. Everyone bought the US RCAF guys free beers.

I had to get back to some yard work...grandkids getting lost in back yard!!!!!

Jo Ann

 

This was the first one he sent on October 23, 1943. Did not get a POW Number yet

 

Here is the second one:

 

Hard to read....sorry!

 

I got an email back:

Dear Mrs Michel,

here is the full list of Czech POW´s from STALAG 4B Muhlberg:


Zdenek SKARVADA
Gustav KOPAL
Jaroslav NYC
Bedrich VALNER
Frantisek PETR
Sgt Augustin SESTAK (read like SHESTAK) - this could your man/my hot favourite - he was Air Gunner from Czechoslovak 311 bomber squadron - POW from 16.10.1940.
Vladimir PARA
Bohumil NETOPIL
Jaroslav KLVANA
Karel STASTNY
Otakar KRESTA
hope this helps

Hopefully we can find out for sure!!! He was there for a long time.

Jo Ann

 

I think I got him!

Sergeant S. ESTAK flew Wellington LZ844 .Shot down while on Operatation to Kiel on Oct 16/17th 1940. Crahsed near OOSTERWOLDE , near Apeldoorn , Holland. There was another survivor called Sgt Nortny (pow) .

the rest of the crew died ( Landa, Jarosek, Klimt, Jirsak)

 

To be noticed "311 was formed at Honington on 29 July. This was a bomber squadron equipped with Wellingtons and commenced raids on 21 September. Its Czech motto was the Hussite slogan ‘Na množství nehleďte’ (‘Ignore their numbers’)."
http://www.rogerdarlington.co.uk/czechsinraf.html

this means that Estak was possibly shot down on one of his first operations in the Raf.

 

I spent all day transcribing....

Section on Escapes from Interview

Muhlberg.
They had a wood gathering detail made up of Italian Army POW’s. The Italians that were in the camp, they were in bad shape. Their morale was terrible was terrible. They used these guys on the wood detail. So what they would do, they would man-haul a wagon up to the main gate. They would stand there. There would be maybe 8, 9 or more of the Italian guys standing around this wagon. A guard would come out and they would assign them into the wood detail. He’d count them, ok, 12. You got 12 people. Well they would man-haul that wagon up to this pine forest and pick up all this dead wood laying around, load it up in the wagon, bring it back to Muhlberg. Now the Germans wanted to control this wood. We had a terrible fuel shortage all the time. They gave us this small coal briquette but not many of them. But this was a supplemented thing. So what they would do, they would come in that main gate, go all the way down through this main drag, out the back gate, unload the wood outside the wire, come back through the back gate all the way up to the front gate and then they counted them. Now this was a terrible breach of security because we made arrangements so that when either going down or coming back somebody would join that party in Italian Army Uniform. And of course the count when they got back up to the main gate, the count would be correct. Now of course we got someone sitting out there in the woods. But I used that over and over again. The Germans never seemed to figure it out. We did. And a quite a number of our people got away on that. They didn’t get back to England. I don’t know how many escape POW’s got back but not very many. But that’s ok. There’s no such thing as an unsuccessful escape. If you’re grabbed like I was that time at the gate, that’s ok because you’re using up his man power. If you get away, he’s got to hunt for you. If he catches you, he’s got to assign a guard to guard you. Your using his transport to haul you back to where ever you came from. And this all costs him. And that was what we were after. And that’s why there is no such thing as an unsuccessful escape. But anyway, this operation, I had made arrangements for a guy to join the party after we come back and I was going to stay out in the woods and break from there. Well while I’m standing there, trying to look as down trodden as I could and look as much as I can as these poor sad Italians. This Dutch fella walks up to me, a fella that I knew quite well and in impeccable English, he says “Excuse me Yank, have you got a light?” Well of course the guard jumped on that right away. He walked over and he was looking at me, grabbed this Italian Army overcoat and ripped it open. I had a civilian jacket on underneath and in the lining of the civilian jacket I had 22 bars of chocolate and they were so delighted over that. I served 30 days for that one. That was the first time.

 

Cont.

The second time, I teamed up with a man, he was a Czechoslovakian. He spoke several different languages, Eastern European languages, spoke Polish, Czech, Slovene, oh good lord, he knew his way around the languages. And I teamed up with him and in eastern Poland and western Russia, the Ukraine area, there is a marsh called the Pripet. And it was a pretty extensive marsh, several 100 square miles, I guess. You couldn’t operate heavy equipment in there at all. But in the winter time it froze. So both the Germans and the Russians had patrols in there. And our rationale was that maybe we could contact a Russian patrol. So we went to the Pripet marsh. Unfortunately we didn’t contact a Russian patrol, we contacted a German Patrol and we went right back in the bag again.

Now that same individual went with me to Yugoslavia the next attempt and we got out of the camp the same way with this wood detail. In Yugoslavia they had a Civil War going. They had a group called the Chetniks and they were Royalists. And there was a man by the name of Mahailovic who was in charge of them. The other group were the communists and they were backed by the man, Tito in there. Well at that time the British and Americans were trying to placate the Russians and the 2nd front bit was coming all over the place. Joe Stalin was pointing the finger, you know, How come you guys haven’t opened up a 2nd front. So the British appointed Randolph Churchill, who was Winston Churchill’s son as their liaison on to Tito. Of course we were placating the Russians there and Tito was the communist side. Well after the War Tito had Mihailovic executed, treason you know and I have read some of the biggest pack that you ever could think of in this country. Academia about how the Chetnics were on the side of the Germans. Well if they were all on the side of the Germans, how does it happen that we had so many of them in the prison camps? And they did. Now I don’t remember communists in that prison camp from Yugoslavia. But any rate, we got connected with the Chetnics and they passed us along and they came to a place where there were 2 hills that came together, kinda like a gap in there. There was a creek, a small macadam highway and a rail road track at the bottom of these 2 hills. This is in Yugoslavia. (Interviewer – How far from Camp? How long did it take you to get there?) Oh 200 miles. (Interviewer – Well how did you get there?) Well we, Muhlberg is not that far from the point of Czechoslovakia . In fact we got into Czechoslovakia, into Hungary, through Hungary, down into Yugoslavia and then when we got to this place where these 2 hills were together, they told us, they said “Now beyond that stream, that creek, that is Tito’s men. That’s the way they put it. Now we had nothing to do with that side at all. These guys treated us pretty darn nice. And they said we can’t go beyond there. Ok. So we went down and crossed the road and tracks and come up the other side of the mountain and we got surrounded by about 5 or 6 people with guns. They had the guns right on us and they turned us back. They would have no part of us. We told them who we were and told them we wanted to contact Randolph Churchill. No Way.