Were the P-40 Flying Tigers Worth It???

About the M-15. It was Curtis E. Lemay who first had the M-15 put into service.

 

Mustang " Awesome picture Friedrich!!! You can kind of see the "Sharks Mouth" behind one of the pilots. Didn't Claire Chennault have them painted on in order to boost morale? Then shortly thereafter they became famous?.....
"
Did you know that the Flying Tigers copied the "Sharks Mouth" off the P-40`s used by 112 Squadron RAF in the Western Desert

 

Didn't know that. Geuss you learn something new everyday.

 

Garyyyyyyyy, are you out there? Please post the pic of Tex Hill will you?

 

Redcoat, You posted and I quote:

"The Chinese Government paid the Flying Tigers for 297 kills, but in reality they had about 115."

Your words my friend. So who is the liar, the Chinese Government which only paid on confirmed kills, the author what's his name, or the Flying Tigers?

What kind of stupid statement is that? I guess you thought the guys here would shake their heads in agreement. Sorry, man, I can not let that one go by. Maybe the others can, I can't. I've met some of them from pilots to crews and they had no reason to lie. Hell, they didn't even keep the score and could care less about it! They are/were great guys who were called upon to go to war. Heros is what they are....not score inflating liars....

I too, personally beleive most kills were not recorded correctly. However, I think the true total was not the published one because kills had to be documented. I think many pilots had higher scores than the confirmed tally. I totally disagree with those who only want to subtract.

I have seen over the decades where some idiot, who wasn't there, tries to take away the few CONFIRMED kills various pilots had. WHY? What is the point? To sell books I guess. The only number that continues to go up from the war is the dead count at the camps. Everything else from the men who fought becomes less and more diminished! Give me a break! If one adds up the total amount of planes lost and the total of confirmed kills, he will see hundreds are unaccounted for. How can someone from an armchair even want to take away from the scores of the various Aces? Perhaps because most are dead now and they cannot defend themselves? These authors could sell a few more books by spreading false ideas, look at the Americn tabloids. The Flying Tigers were soldiers in the air war and should not have to defend their printed, documented, and confirmed scores. No pilot on either side should either.

Carl, I'm not your secretary and I don't sit on your lap so quit telling me what the hell to post! No way would I put "Tex'" photo in this discussion. I respect him and the others who were there too much.

Ahhhhhhh!!!! and I just spilled some great whiskey on my keyboard.............this is not my day!

[ 06 October 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: mott5ranch ]

 

Good point. The Flying Tigers were/are great guys and should be respected as the first special forces in the United States of America. Even if their "scores" were a little off they were still great pilots. They should be respected with upmost respect!!!

 

"So who is the liar, the Chinese Government which only paid on confirmed kills, the author what's his name, or the Flying Tigers?"

no-body is lying, the figure is just incorrect.

 

I don't think that the Flying Tigers would lie because the are/were great guys. I don't think that the Chinese Government lie. Who would want to pay extra money anyway? I don't think that the Japs lied because as was said earlier, "friendly losses are usually close to 100% right." So yeah, nobody was lying, the figures were just wrong.

 

Gary--you may not be my secretary but--YOU have the computer to post these things--remember? I HAVE to use the library computers.

 

I have to believe Redcoat's argument here. I'd like to find any pilots who did not over-claim victories at some time during the war, and I find it hard to believe that the Chinese Nationalist Army were able to confirm the Tiger's kills in entirety, after all they spent most of their time retreating and were not known for administrative efficiency. Taking the defender's losses is a far more accurate form of measurement: after all if a guy gets shot down a government will want to stop paying him for a start!

Once you cut through the romanatcism nationalism and other crap around the Flying Tigers what you get to is a group of semi-mercenaries who provided the Chinese Nationalists with a small but fairly efficient group of aircraft and pilots.

If it was worth it, well I'd like to ask if any lessons learned were incorporated in US aircraft design, tactics or doctrine based on the experience in China? If they did, like the Germans did in Spain, then it probably was - testing your kit in a real war is a pretty good idea if you learn from it. Pointless if you don't.

I wonder if Chennaults men ever came across any of Hitler's Wehrmacht-advisors out in China who were also testing kit there?

Jumbo

 

Redcoat: Great post! That's what I really like about this forum: well-researched, interesting material, compellingly written.
And on the other hand, there's Mott5: faithful disciple of the John Wayne School of American History. *YAWN*
The Flying Tigers were a band of mercenary pilots who made no military impact on the war whatsoever. The numbers speak for themselves: they accomplished ZIPPO in the large scheme of theings. The Japanese were never going to conquer China in any case: Roosevelt knew that. The Tigers were simply used to further provoke the Japanese into attacking the United States. It was a political ploy. All this crap about stemming the Japqanese advance is pure rubbish and romanticism. All these guys wanted to do was fly planes and get paid. They were adventure seekers who couldn't tell you the difference between Hirohito and a hero sandwich.
And you can turn down the Lone Star stuff, too...

 

Hmmmmmm, I wonder if I should check with friends and family of noted local ace Johnnie Hamsphire about the recent comments made. They should get a great kick out of this. He is credited with 18 victories and was KIA over China.
Every army airforce during WW2 made some bogus claims. It's a fact and no-one can get around it. You can ask any air firce vet and they will tell you nothing is confirmed without a wingman or someone in your squadron/fighter gorup to confirm the action and shoot down. And also for the German's confirmation from the ground. This was not that hard to do obviously from late 43 through early 45 as the battles raged far and above the Reich.

 

I still say that the Tigers were worth it. They were the first American special forces. Over-claiming is just another aspect of war. They still shot down a lot of Japs. We probably did learn a lot from them. The P-51 probably wouldn't have come into existence if the P-40 Flying Tigers hadn't flown in China either. The pilots probably were just adventure seekers who wanted to get paid for flying an airplane. Hey, I wouldn't mind getting paid for flying an airplane. These guys shot down other planes while they were flying though. They didn't lose a lot of planes themselves either.

 

Mustang
"The P-51 probably wouldn't have come into existence if the P-40 Flying Tigers hadn't flown in China either."

The Flying Tigers operated from Dec 1941 until July 1942.

The first prototype of the Mustang flew in Oct 1940, the first production aircraft arrived in Britain during Nov 1941, first operational sortie 27 July 1942
I don`t see the connection

 

Erich

I don't post stuff to mollycoddle Vet's families. If we let family history overwhelm factual evidence we'd be putting historiography back over a hundred years. If facts are uncomfortable for people then I'm sorry, but thats it.

I was asked by a family to do some research about their "family hero", an Austrian officer killed during a cavalry charge in 1877.

3 days in Vienna later I had a fireman who died in his bed. He had been a Korporal in the infantry and was a sharpshooter, but never saw action.

An extreme case, and they weren't happy (to the extent that they initially refused to pay me) but I learned my lesson.

Jumbo

 

Jumbo :

I understand your sentiments but I asked a couple of people that new Johnnie quite well including an ex-girlfriend of his that is one of my customers. They have heard all of this before and it is all old news to them.....60 years plus which is a long time ago. No one has any of his personal records so they have been archived and are with family in other parts of the states or in the national archiv's. I guess my point is if you are considering to find the truth about air or ground aces, be easy. don't point the finger in their faces and tell them straight up that they are lying. Get their story first then go do some research.......sometime you get ripped and sometimes you get a golden egg.

E

 

Roosevelt signed the Executive Order authorizing the formation of the American Volunteer Group on 15 April, 1941.

 

Let me get this straight. The Flying Tigers lied and padded their totals but the Japanese were always truthful in the amount of aircraft they lost? Jumbo, just because a Jap pilot was shot down doesnt mean he died, the Japanese government was not going to run out and stop payment on his last check to save money. The aircraft loss total refers to planes shot down not pilots killed.

 

Yep, ripped the shark-mouthes off the britts. We originally had skulls on p-40s on the nose...I think that was pre-war? I'm sure someone has seen the shots I"m talking about.

Also, something I've always respected about the tigers. From what I understand, the armor and other weight made them very slow....especially compaired to the light weight fighters the japanese had. The only way they could go on the offensive, from what I remember, was by diving.

You know, the tigers didn't get any kind of vet. status or benefits until, what, the 80s? Sorry I'm so vauge on this, but I've gotta go study. Just thought it might bring up some more talk.

 

Skulls on P-40's......

85th fighter squadron, 80th fighter group, 10th air force.

E