Were the P-40 Flying Tigers Worth It???

Skulls on P-40,s. Cool. Didn't know that. Cool. Yes Redcoat the first Mustang came in 1942. The first Mustang with the designation P-51 came in 1943.

 

Steve

Pretty much, yes. I do believe the Japanese totals over the Flying Tigers. In the same that most people accept this method for BoB assessment. There is nothing new or radical in this idea. Perhaps your sense of disbelief is that you find it hard to accept that the Japs may have been telling the truth? Of course not every pilot died, but an aircraft was lost at the very least. This would have to be logged and recorded for the unit commander to get replacements. If he didn't eventually he'd run out of planes. How else is he to explain their disappearance?

It's a matter of thinking how military bureaucracies work and what you need to make them work.

Then there's the issue of confirmed kills. Supposedly the Koumintang only paid out on confirms. Who provides that confirmation? Your mates in the squadron perhaps? Could there have been a you-scratch-my-back approach to this, especially where there were bounties involved? It may not even have been deliberate, rather a less careful logging approach and pilots very keen to have kills.

It wouldn't be the first time. My favourite example is from 1793-94 when Wurmser's Freicorps were offered a bounty for the head of every Frenchman. Soon dozens of headless peasant bodies began surfacing around the countryside. Like Ankh Morpork and the Rat farms...

Jumbo

 

Ok, that part about headless peasants was just plain sick. I'd believe the Japs loss total as well. Not every plane lost would mean a pilot lost however. There probalby was a you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours thing going on...

 

What happened to my beautiful picture?!

 

Another source of confirmations would be the locals.

 

Night Rider Temple wrote

I would like to avoid the personal home attacks, but I will fire back since you shot first. It's a Texas thing. Heritage and pride seperate the Scots from the Brits, the Bavarians from the Germans, and Texas from the US. I would prefer to discuss statements, remarks and other postings without getting personal. We should all be able to agree or disagree without playing the personal attack of someones home. However, if that is the playground rules, let's ride.

I accept the written documented evidence of the period in regard to the scores of the Flying Tigers. Someone may suggest something else, another may imply a third opinion, but the record still stands regardless of an author who talked to two Japs. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. Whether or not the Flying Tigers made an impact on the war is(again) your opinion. I know they made a big difference. Other allied nations agree. FDR sent them over not to provoke a war but to stop the Japanesse agression. I get a little tired of the fairy tale of the US pulling strings to get the Japaness to attack Pearl. Again, our allied partners gave the Flying Tigers countless awards. I guess the decorations handed out by the British, Chinese, and French to the various members is all worthless and meaningless to you. Not so, they had an unbelievable record which caused every nation to take notice. In addition to the Tigers success in the air they also proved to be a valuable assent in recon and troop support. The Flying Tigers were an awesome unit never to be equaled again. They were at the right place at the right time in history. Sure a few were adventure seekers, they were young men in their 20's! Who doesn't seek adventure when they were young, but they were also patriots. I guess you choose to attack them because over a third were from Texas. You don't like Texans. I guess you have something against Shriners, because many of them were 3rd degree freemasons. I guess you hate sandwiches(up north they are called Hero's down South they are called "Po-boys") and you think all pilots are uneducated. I guess you have a problem with coming from a small state which is about the size of a dozen ranches here. I don't know the reason for your enjoyment in putting down the Tigers. I guess *YAWN* it makes you feel better. I still think you are very disrespectful to these Men of Honor. By the way, you can tone down the yankee Kennedy attitude as well.

History is history and regardless of your opinion, which you are entitled to have, the Flying Tigers will always be at the top of the list in helping the allies win the Pacific Theatre.

John Wayne was also decorated by our nation for his service to the war effort. (Several times)

 

As George W. would say, "don't mess with Texas." Texas is pretty cool though. The Houston Astros are a nice team, and a steak down there is about the size of four of my hands!!!

The Flying Tigers not only made a difference in the second world war, but in future wars as well.

 

Well said, Mustang. Short, sweet and right to the point. If I had the authority I'd give you a ride on Air Force One. Do you like the new paint job?
YEEEEEeeeeeeee HAWWWWWW!

 

Here is one of the many websites dedicated to the Flying Tigers. Enjoy!

web page

 

Nice site!!! I can't get enough of that picture! So know we know that the Flying Tigers detroyed more thatn 200 enemy planes while losing about 16 of their own right? Are we in agreement now? I mean, atleast that's what the president said.

 

"Nice site!!! I can't get enough of that picture! So know we know that the Flying Tigers detroyed more thatn 200 enemy planes while losing about 16 of their own right? Are we in agreement now? I mean, atleast that's what the president said."
NO. While the Flying Tiger were brave and skilled, the figure they shoot down was nearer to 120, and no they did not lie or "pad" their figures, its just that in air-combat over-claiming is normal
As for what your president says, I`ll give my reply a miss

 

But we all think that the Flying Tigers were worth right?

 

Mustang "But we all think that the Flying Tigers were worth it right?

Yes, they were

 

Most definitely

 

Well that makes three of us......

 

Thanks for posting the site Gary--nice one.

 

Hey Carl! Do you think that the Flying Tigers were worth it? It would be nice to know your opinion seeing how you're a Field Marshal, and have a Medal of Honor, and have the most posts.....

 

Mott:
Nothing personal against Texans.
I am sorry for the offence and apologize for any personal remarks, either stated or implied.

My comments generally concern the actions of the US government and how they often unnecessarily expose soldiers and civilians to danger. I'm sure the Tigers were a fine bunch of guys, and I do not want to take away from their accomplishments.
It's just that history has somewhat inflated these accomplishments.
My point is that their contribution was more political than military.

In 1940, Roosevelt was trying to find the best means of provoking the Japanese into a conflict. This strategy was later confirmed by discovery of The McCollum Memo.

On October 7, 1940, Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum of the Office of Naval Intelligence submitted a memo to Navy Captains Walter Anderson and Dudley Knox. Captains Anderson and Knox were two of President Roosevelt's most trusted military advisors. It consists of an 8-step plan to get Japan to attack the United States. Roosevelt implemented all of these suggestions.
The following information provided by : Arthur Hutchinson and Jeremy Bishop
Emphasis is mine.

Thoughtfully submitted,
The Knight

 

Knight

Interesting outline, but not really conclusive. The existence of plan Red in the late 20's did not mean that the US was expecting to go to war against the British Empire. Staffs are expected to come up with this sort of thing all the time.

Mott. Tone down the hyperbole. Handing out gongs is not always sign of military effectiveness, it can be a sign of political support. The Tigers were also wonderful propaganda for a faltering allied cause, and like much allied propaganda it has become WW2 folklore. As for the idea that they will never be equalled I think you are allowing your Lone Star enthusiasm to overwhelm you (Hood all over again perhaps?).

the role of US pilots in China. and in Europe is fascinating. Guys like Red Tobin and Andy Mamedoff who signed up for the Finns, escaped from France and ened up in the RAF are real Boys Own stories. It's not a matter of taking anything away from these guys. It's like the British claim that they never discussed peace with Germany: we can either continue to believe this Churchillian rhetoric, or we can try to find the truth. The Tigers are the same. Did they effect USAAF tactics, aircraft design or doctrine? Yes or No? I can't believe that so few aircraft made any significant impact in China.

Jumbo

 

Jumbo:
What's inconclusive? I demonstrated how each of the eight points was accomplished by FDR.
I'm assuming that you're trying to say that the US was not trying to aggravate the Japanese.
Were these actions meant to improve relations between the two countries?? Come on...