What if........Hitler never invaded the Soviet Union?

Perhaps the timing of the invasion of the SU could be questioned, but not its eventual happening. The cornerstone of 'dolphie's plan for empire is the Lebensraum to the east with the various ethnic groups there being reduced to agricultural chattels, ala blacks in America. There is simply no way to eliminate this and still have the dreamed of Third Reich.

Consider also that Communism and Fascism/Nazism are polar opposites on the political scale. I am well aware that both dictators used the same methods, but that isn't the issue. The divergent political theory of the movements promotes the inevitable conflict.

They won't be able to exist side by side in the atmosphere of mutual distrust that would have multiplied expotentially as time passed for very long.

Regards,
Dennis

 

On the other hand,had he an alternative ? The war with the USA was approching,remember the reunion of Churchill and Roosevelt at Newfoundland ,Hitler had to be sure that Stalin was on his side :neutral was not enough ,a neutral can enter the war and the USSR was more dangerous in the short time:it had a border with Germany :for Hitler the USSR was the continental sword of England.The USSR had to be his ally or had to be eliminated and without the USSR no Overlord. But Hitler was in a hurry:in 1941 the USSR was weak,but in 1942 ?

 

I don't know about that. The impression I get is that his response was more along the lines of "ah well, that'll serve the b****r right for being so palsy with Hitler" closely followed by "damn! Now half the Lend-Lease shipments we've ordered are going to have to go East to prop up UJ"

The US was definitely 'neutral on the side of england' even quite early on, extremely so once the Lend-Lease acts came into being. However I'm not sure AH fully appreciated at the time that the US was able and willing to essentially provide the UK with whatever was required to beat Germany.
The impression I have is that AH made the decision to attack the USSR pretty much on it's own 'merits' - i.e. that it was high time to turn the invincible nazi war machine on the untermenschen. The senior staff had apparently been drawing up plans for demobbing large numbers of soldiers and returning to a smaller more professional army when he told them to forget all that and get ready for the Phase II on the eastern front.

 

Hitler forbad the KM toripost to the US navy .Concerning the demobilisation,there was a partial demobilisation-a very good source is "the Dupuy Institute " ;there were plans for a war with the USA but the decision was only made in december 1940 . Ithink that-maybe? ,probably ? -after peace with or elimination of the UK , there would have be a war with the USSR ,but when ?

 

As stupid as this seems, he had to. Although it meant a doomed Reich, Hitler invaded Russia because he wanted to destroy the Soviet Union but also because the Soviets would have realized that they were in danger, too. Stalin might have realized this in time to prepare for war, and WW2 would have ended up the exact same way.

 

Russia would have eventually attacked Germany, but not necessarily directly. Russia might have turned its military south against Hungary or Romania, or maybe into Turkey or Iran.

Without Germany deeply into Russia in December 1941, would Roosevelt have prioritized Japan as the primary theater?

 

I didn't read through all 3 pages here so I 'm just going to state my opinion.

Firs of all. I believe that if he had not went after Russia that he would have invaded Britain, or at least tried to. I also think that he would have had a MUCH stronger army (Obviously). so in this case I think that America would come into the war much earlier and have it's industrial strength backing Britain for the ineviteble invasion.

After America has it's butt in gear with with the industrial stuff they will eventually launch an attack across the English Channel (Probably Normandy or Calais) in probably 45 or 46 after fighting it's way through North Africa and Italy. The Russians would also attack at the same time into Poland on a very narrow front heading for Berlin.

I think at this rate the war would have been finished by 1948-40, with the SS and the werchmant being very powerful because they hadn't been bled out. Germany would still control the sky's as the did in 42 and 43 with the US and Britain pounding them but still taking heavy losses even with the new P51s.

 

That is all well and good, but ignores the fact that the Germans were the original targets of the atomics, and if they had still been in the war when they were completed, it would have been Germany which was targeted, with the third and fourth going toward Japan if they remained "troublesome". # 1&2 were ready in August of '45, as historically. # 3&4 were ready before August ended.

The assembly of the two part case for the un-named implossion type was complete and sitting on Tinian when Nagasaki was hit, the core for #3 was complete but called back from San Fran (from where it was going to be airshipped), and kept at Los Alamos until the Japanese signed the papers of surrender in Sept. The two case halves and the core for un-named implossion type #4 was completed in this time-frame as well, and also held at Los Alamos until they were both used in the "Crossroads" tests at Bikini.

 

You are right. But you have to remember that may have lengthend the war or shortened it. it could have gone either way. Hitler being who he was after seeing the Abomb hit would have pushed the German army harder and they would have fought harder IMO. them knowing that not just the russians were mean but both the allies also

 

I wonder at that; because Hitler and Goebbels had both been touting "secret wunderwaffe", and if an atomic or two had hit Germany it may have become apparent to both the troops and Hitler's closest advisors that they had lost the race completely.

Since Stalin had his spies in the MED project, he knew we were close, but if "mushrooms had started sprouting" in Europe he may well have pulled back and awaited the inevitable. Then again, knowing Stalin he may have advanced to the agreed upon "limits" from Yalta, and only stopped then.

I do NOT think Berlin would have been an atomic target, and only for the same reason Tokyo wasn't. You have to have someone from whom to take the surrender. I would put up Stuttgart, where the Allies knew the Nazis held their atomic ores stored, and Haiger-Loch wasn't too far from Stuttgart, and that was where Heisenberg had transferred his atomic research project. We knew that from our own spies.

 

For Stalin invading first, read "Third Reich Victorious" chaper: "The Storm and the whirlwind" it provides an interesting point of view.

 

1. Very True.

2. I'm not at all sure what Stalin would have done, know him though I think that he would have pushed it all the way to the end.

3. True.

 

OK Hitler had launched his War Against USSR ,because Of Stalin's Cutting on Fuel Supplement 2 Germany!! and Some of His Secret Relations With Hitler's Nemesis=Britian!!
If He Didn't Then He Could With USSR Support Not Only Take Europe but Also The Whole Oily Middle East!! And Maybe They Could Together Make a Big Threat 2 America ItSelf!!

 

The USSR most certainly did NOT cut off the petroleum to the Nazis. The relations/negotiaions were going on between Nazi Germany and Britain as well as between the Soviets and Britain and France. Hitler only attacked the Soviets because he had always said he would, and that was the only direction into which he could expand for Lebensraum.

BTW, the oil in the Mid-east was largely unknown, over 75% of the global oil production came from the western hemisphere, led by the USA. The soviets had under 12% of global production, and the mid-east about 2% in Persia (Iran), and 1% in Iraq. None in Saudia Arabia, none in the African north (Egypt had a some minor output) the US was the "big dog" in global production until the mid-50s.

Even the Soviets imported oil from the USA during the war.

 

As it has been pointed out, Stalin did not cut petroleum or any other supply's agreed in the treaty with Hitler. In fact, the last Russian train crossing the Russian-German border did so exactly 2 hours prior to the invasion.


And why are you yelling??

 

Found my resource on the oil sent to Hitler, and the last train across was carrying grain. As an aside, Hitler held the launch of Barbarossa for those two hours so that the grain delivery could be completed!

"The Soviets had sent over 4.5 million barrels of oil to Hitler in the time between Dec.1939 and June 1941 when he (Hitler) sent his armies east in Operation Barbarossa. The Soviet Union was at the time the world's second largest oil producer (far behind the USA). Despite strict rationing internally however, it still had to import oil from the United States to meet its own needs while shipping oil to Hitler!"

"…Hans Kolbe, a U.S. spy in the German Foreign Ministry in Berlin, offered this assessment: "The German need to obtain Soviet oil was deemed the primary reason for the attack. Since the Soviet deliveries were insufficient to satisfy German needs for bringing the war [in the west] to a conclusion, the only recourse appeared to be the seizure and exploitation by the Germans of the oil resources of the Soviet Union."

Goto:

http://www.eiaonline.com/history/bloodforoil.htm

The petroworld was really different in those days wasn't it, over 60% of global petroleum production came from the USA's own wells!

 

An excellent find.

 

the own nature of stalin burocratic regime tends to naturally mantain status quo
the burocracy would never risk and all out war with germany (if they didnt strike first) beacuse if it did it would risk its own domination of the soviet state, basis of its parasitism.

 

i dont trust churchill book it is a parcial and apologetic of capitalism, written after the war. the total omission of the bombing of dresden proves that.

who knows if he had faith in victory after pearl harbor, his optimism seems suspicious. politicians lie, and a lot more in a cold-war crisis

 

On the other hand:I do not think that the Sovjet Union was that depending on oil :1940:Sovjet oil production :32,168 million ton of which 26,6 from Baku,Grozny,Maikop (= 78,27 %) ;in 1945 19,436 of which 13,131 from Baku,Grozny,Maikop ( =76,75 % ) . Maybe they get some oil from the US after june 1941.An othet point:4,5 barrels = how much ton ? The big question is why did the production of Baku decrease by nearly 50 % by 1945 since it was never bombed by the Germans . Is this a result of a failure to repear or to replce essential equipment in the oil fields as well as a failure to drill new wells when existing ones ran dry. or perhaps something as simple as a labor shortaga ? Source:the economic geography of Sovjet oil and coal and their means of transport in WW II