What if...The Germans knew Enigma was broken by the Allies

Sidestepping from the topic here for a moment...

It seems to be the general consensus on these forums that the Axis powers could never have won the war because they lacked resources, both human and material, because they were often horribly led, and because they didn't posess enough economic power. Therefore, anything that speeds up Allied victory ultimately saves lives (because the war lasts shorter, fewer people die).

From a different point of view, it was argued in this very thread that Ultra didn't actually help the Allies much. This defuses my argument that it saved lives, but also yours because it didn't actually make a difference that an Enigma machine with its codebooks was captured.

 

hmm, well, I think you´re right Roel

 

But...

It did provide very good information on all kinds of stuff, fromm troop movements to logistics to the location and orders of U-boats.
It may not have said 'Ve vill attack der schwein tomorrow at dawn in this town with this unit' (apologies for the mock-German! ) but it did give a good overview to to Allies as to the capabilities and supply situation of the enemy facing them (no coincidence that the big surprise assault of the Ardennes was achieved in part due to radio silence - although the Allies were aware thanks to Ultra that the Germans had built up a fair amount of stores back there), not to mention an edge in the Atlantic.

Without Ultra we would have been far more in the dark about even simple intel like which German units were stationed where.

 

yes ricky but in the end it wouldn't make much difference. sure, the Brittisch used the decoded messages to shorten the war and to place more troops were the germans had moved more troops so a good counterattack couldn't be made (except for in the Ardennes off course).
but what about the russians? they didn't use ULTRA but they smashed the Germans back and they didn't had the knowledge of who was facing them

 

No, but imagine if they had - they could have operated with more finesse and lost much fewer men. In theory

Besides, Britain did not have the huge human resources of the USSR - we needed to have as much of an advantage as we could get.

 

good point, nothing to comment on that

 

Not to get into another Europe versus the US thread but it is clear that the war in Europe got more media attention at the time (and to an extent even today) than the war in the Pacific. This is no doubt partly due to Roosevelt's Europe first plan (which can be argues was a mistake, but that's another thread) and since the war in the Pacific was almost exclusively fought by the US those in Europe had(and many still have) little knowledge or interest in what was the largest naval war in history as well as some of the most fierce land battles in history.
Some of you have demonstrated much knowledge on the subject in the naval section of the forums.
For the others, if one is really interested in military history you should educate yourself regarding this remarkable and interesting theatre of war.

 

Seconded. In many British history books the Pacific war sections almost seem an afterthought. :roll:

And the China-Burma-India war is less known still.

 

Seems to me that knowing the intentions of your enemy is an invaluable asset and advantage... tempered by the fact one must keep the enemy from realizing you are reading his communiques.
No doubt lives were sacrificed to preserve this secret. This is true in regards to both the Germans and ULTRA and the Japanese and MAGIC.
I have to agree with Ricky on this point. We knew submarine disposition and patrol areas. (ULTRA.) Knowing your enemy's intentions means you don't have to defend every inch of your line and tie-down troops and logistic-needs better utilized elsewhere.

Quillen:
Stalin demanded results whatever the cost. It sometimes appeared the Russian battle-plan was to force the germans to run out of ammunition by killing Russian troops in incredible numbers.

Tim

 

that's why they called it "the forgotten front". bearly getting attention in their time and almost forgotten in our time. but thats maby because they came in offencive in 45. was was almost over


Hoosier. i agree on that. many russians were made drunk and then sended to take out a german machine gun as one example. it makes you ask wath the Russians would do if they wouldn't had that nummeric advantage

 

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They would have used different tactics....

 

Ricky:
The Imphal-Kohima Ridge battles were some of the fiercest of the entire CBI campaign. It was a shining hour for the British 4th Royal West Kents, and the 161st Brigade. Rajputs as well.
It was a very bloody campaign and one of the most intriguing.

Tim

 

no doubt but i'm wonderd what kind of tactics they would devellop; they couldn't defend the whole line then and certainly keep on pushing the offensive when the losses kept on climbing. htey would have gone in defence for a while allowing the germans to retake the offensive

 

I know the general line of events in the Pacific theatre, and it is not ignorance but simply interest that drives me to the ETO as my field of specialism. However, you are right that the PTO generally doesn't get the attention it deserves. Strangely, Dutch writers tend to overplay the role of the US in the war, and yet they hardly ever mention its decisive role in fighting Japan. :-?

 

i think even the dutch don't get the credit they deserved. once singapore was besieged it were dutch submarines who sunk a lot of trnasports, slowing the japs down (at least a little bit)