What if the Me-262 was created earlier?

If Roddoss' commentary was directed at me, I generally try to be impartial and objective in my posts. I do not find the Germans to be supermen and give credit where it is due. By the same token I give the same credit to the Allies and the same negative commentary when it is due. I asked Erich the questions I did to gain some additional information on the operations he cited as he has done far more specific research into particular Luftwaffe unit operations than I. On the other hand, I have expert knowledge of electronics and electronic warfare so I can make commentary there and cite specifics when necessary.

 

Well let's get back to subject, which is, what-if the Germans had hundreds of Me-262 available in 1943, but only a jet engine for each 5 planes

 

They would likely do what they did in other similar situations to that: Put the operational handful of aircraft into service where their miniscule numbers only provide experiance and impetus to their enemies to develop effective counters which then appear in overwhelming numbers and make the German jet a technological irrelevancy.

 

Hey guys, for those who have forgotten about the original question here it is for your inconvenience. So in debating terms stick to the confines of the Question and not real world facts because POD's and the real world never mix.

I would say that to be brutally effective the Luftwaffe needs at least a Fliegerfuhrer's worth of Me-262's say about say 600 to 900 plus an additional 300 Fw-190's for airfield protection in western Europe.

This would give the Germans at least two or three years grace, and i agree with a previous poster and that is i would deploy several hundred in the east against the Soviet Union. I bet one thing the Soviets were at least 10 years behind the Germans in Turbojet technology.

 

I disagree. A good what if in my opinion selects a point of departure from the historical time line and then extrapolates what would likely happen in the circumstances described. This does require a bit more work to set up. For example the pod for the above would have had to have been at least a couple of years probably 5 or more prior to 42. Which means the other side is likely going to get time to react. I personally put fantasy and what ifs in to different categories.

 

I think the original what-if was thoroughly discussed. The Germans get the 262 into production sometime in 1942. A year later they have several hundred in service and no more mainly due to the high rate of operational losses and poor reliability.
This gives the Allies, who have been developing jets of their own, the time to respond to the German threat and now (1943) they too have jet aircraft that can match the 262 in performance but have several times as many in service negating the German's initial advantage.
Because the Germans are unable to put large numbers of 262 into service and the ramp up rate is low the Allies also are able to make temporary fixes and modifications to their operations, tactics, and existing aircraft to tide them over until they have jets of their own.
So, on its own, the 262 buys Germany little. Incremental technology like this does not win wars, it wins a few battles and then becomes the normal technology and everyone has it.

 

i was looking, but can't find the numbers...but i had read the Luftwaffe planes built in 1944/45 equalledequalled the first 5 years of the war....but with little fuel to train ew pilots...and less skilled aviators...it was read somewhere where the german s where swimming in planes, but no-one or fuel to man them

 

The German aero industry produced something like 44,000 to 50,000 aircraft (of all kinds) in 1944/45, with 10's of thousands still in various stages of production.

Time ran out, the combined allied offensive bled Germany and her allies dry.

v.R

 

One can see the poor planning in this. The Germans mass produce airplanes without adequite means to fuel, repair, pilot, or otherwise make use of them. So, hundreds if not thousands of planes sit for lack of one or more of the above. JV 44, Galland's jet fighter unit is a perfect example. Here is an Me 262 unit with about 50 aircraft actually sitting on the airfield.
Yet, this unit can't get all of them in the air and for the most part they sit unused on the ground due to lack of fuel. When they do manage to fly many of the pilots are unfamiliar and unskilled with their new mounts making them vulnerable to the enemy.
In modern warfare many weapons are part of a complex system. Without all the parts of the system in place these same weapons are nearly worthless.

 

What is the point of building so many planes if they are not going to be able to fly? And if they are going to be able to, then why waste them in detrimental, wasteful, useless and suicidal endeavours like Operation Bodenplatte?

It's all senseless.

Unternehmen Bodenplatte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
OPERATION BODENPLATTE | Flight Journal | Find Articles at BNET.com

 

War is senseless... then again so are most people... this explains why war persists.

 

I tend to agree with the majority of posts here that say 'not much difference'.

Up until the US began using long range escort fighters in large numbers (early 1944), the additional speed provided by the ME262 would have been unlikely to have provided a step change in the number of kills by Luftwaffe pilots. The majority of air combat until this time was Fighter (BF109 & FW190) vs Bomber (B17 & B24), where speed would have had little effect in actual combat, although it would have afforded more opportunities for repeated attacks over shorter time periods (particularly for the time taken in setting up the frontal attacks that were so effective in mid 1943). This might have accounted for an increase in kills, but it would have been unlikely to have significantly changed US strategy or greatly influenced mission risk profiles.

The ME262 would have had more impact in early 1944 where US long range escort fighters were beginning to appear in large numbers. A fast fighter would probably have been able to bypass the escort and engage the bombers, partially nullifying the effect of the P51 in improving the survivability of the US bombers. But by this time attrition and resource shortages would have reduced the number of units in operation considerably.

So to cut that long story short, it would have inflicted some pain on the allied bomber formations, but would have been unlikely to effect the progress of the Western Allies.

If they were deployed on the Eastern Front? Hmm, it probably would have enabled the Luftwaffe to retain air superiority for a lot longer, so might have had more significant effects there. Then again, the difficulties with maintaining these aircraft in the field would have been a nightmare had they been operating in the far flung corners of the Eastern Front may have meant that once again, they would have been in numbers too small to stop the tidal wave of the Red Air Force.

 

Just bare with me on this.

First of all i'll go along with this being built and deployed in 1942 but what does it mean in good quantity, obvisiuosly the initiall deployment would de small say a gruppe within an established Jagdgeschwader, this would allow those within the Jagdgeschwader to familiarise the operations of the aircraft, which takes time. Also that one major point that the Me-262 was developed as a pure fighter and not a fighter-bomber, that can be done by the eventual withdrawal of the Me-109 as a front line fighter.

But just say that the Germans do this, say the initial deployment is say 56 Me-262, this is slowly built up over six months and that we have several Jagdgeschwaders are operating Me-262 and a sustainable numbers are being built to cover losses, at it's peak there are 3 Jagdgeschwaders in operation by mid 1943 (Approx 450 Me-262) when Operation Pointblank went into operation.

What are the tactics involved, first do not deploy the Me-262 at the first sign of the Americans in 1942 but when large scale deployment by July 1943, and hit them hard, i would deploy the Me-262 with it's brace of four x 30 mm cannons against the bombers while the Fw-190's and other fighters target the allied fighters. It would be moral blow when 300 to 400 bombers don't return and a further 400 are ecconomical write-offs.

v.R

 

when this came up once before (I think on another forum) someone made a pretty good case for the Germans not being able to support a force of more than about 100 Me-262

 

This is one of the scenarios that the Germans winning the war What If'ers keep bringing up. Unfortunately just one weapon,this time being an aircraft, will not swing the tide nor win the war. Other then the A-bomb which the Germans did not have. The Germans would not be able to support a larger force logistically. It was on the ground where the war was won. You will notice that the Bombing raids though destructive didn't stop the Germans from fighting on the ground. The Allies would be able to quickly counter it and deploy the whole US aircraft indistry against it. The war may have gone on a few more months but in the end it would be the same result but with Mushroom clouds.

 

The germans where swimming in aircraft at wars end, but lack of fuel to fly, Luftwaffe poor management allowing the fighter pool to become shallow with only a handful of tired, elder combat vetrans, and another with poorly trained, inexperienced pilots spelt it's doom..whether they where piloting ME 262's or FW 190, me163Komet, or bachum natter (BA 349)

goering expressed a state of sorrow when JV44 pilots where towed to the end of runway, (waiting for the order to launch) by cows for the wantof fuel of the lorries was not available

 

Oh for the want of fuel.

v.R

 

Since the subject of aircraft production came up I'll clarify it slightly with some stats from Ellis, Table 41 from 'Brute Force'.


1940
Germany 9,430 of all types

Britian 14,573 of all types

Italy 2,943 all types


1943 all types
Germany 23,372

Britian 24,543

Italy 948 Note that Italys production peaked at 3,260 in 1941

USA 81,028

USSR 34,845

1944 all types
Germany 39,626

Britian 22,642

Italy less than two hundred?

USA 91,546

USSR 40,245

The USSR not only had parity with Germany but its pilot training program kept up with aircraft available.

Japans aircraft production was not as bad as Italys but fell far short of Britian.

Table 42 shows the grim numbers in terms of frontline aircraft.
December 1942

Germany 3,440

Britian 5,257

USSR 3,088

USA 4,695

Japan 4,200 January 1943 From Table 23

December 1944 here.

Germany 5,041

Britian 8,395

USSR 14,500

USA 19,892

Japan 4,600 January 1945 Table 23

US numbers do not represent those facing the Japanese. During 1942 the ratio facing Japan of Brit & US aircraft averaged 1-1. In late 1944 it approached 3-1. By the end of 1944 it was pushing to 4-1.

 

If the Me 262 was created earlier we might have lost the war. I say this because if they were created sooner,they might be able to mass produce them and our strategic bombing might not have worked. Which could lead to german air supremecy, plus ground troop would have more supplies because are bombers would have been shot down before they could drop their load. It would have affected the entire war.And they would probably use them to bomb ground troops, and our propeller aircraft wouldnt be able to stop it. The germans might just hand the japs some 262's and guess what. They probably would have blown the crap out of B-29 carring the atomic bomb.

 

:headbash: :deadhorse: lol