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What if United States invades Brazil in 1942

Discussion in 'Alternate History' started by lordroel, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The Japanese "colonization by immigration" policy was of concern to the US, and a provocation to TR.

    When I left Indiana (via medical transport) my brother chose what would come to Missouri. He wasn't much on book learnin'. I lost decades of research.
     
  2. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Your not an idiot, but you have mushed the Samoan Crisis and Black Week(1893 overthrow of the Hawaiian government) into one incident. During the Samoan Crisis, no Japanese ships were present. During Black Week, no German ships were present.

    Covered in better detail here: Avalanche Press
     
  3. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Okay then.
     
  4. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Or they look at off the wall situations as practice in how to plan operations. If you look at the detail of some of the color plans for instance it's pretty clear that "plan" is a bit misleading.

    The "plans" are certainly interesting but without the proper context even calling them "plans" can be a bit misleading. In the case of the two Brazilian plans for instance one appears to have been mostly a training exercise while the other was something that was actually given consideration. In the latter case the date and political/military situation at the time are of considerable import.
     
  5. lordroel

    lordroel Member

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    What do you mean two plans.
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Rich mentioned them in this post:
     
  7. lordroel

    lordroel Member

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    Would the United states invasion be heavy in losses on both sides.
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That depends a lot on the situation does it not? If the US "invasion" is deploying troops to support the current government, especially if those troops are mostly concerned with defending key ports and airbases, probably not. If the US was concerned with conquering Brazil then probably but I don't think that was the objective of either of the plans was it? In either case the US would probably want the end state to be a stable friendly government and use of Brazils ports and air bases. That would hardly require conquest and there's a good chance the actual fighting would be minimal.
     
  9. lordroel

    lordroel Member

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    Germany would only be able to support Brazil symbolic with some submarines if i am corecht.
     
  10. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Depends on when things occur. Early on some of the surface raiders may have been able to play a part. If Brazil actively sided with the Axis early enough I could see the twins making a port call. Of course this is outside both of the US plans. Anytime after mid 42 subs and possibly a couple of cargo flights are about it.
     
  11. lordroel

    lordroel Member

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    The Twins verus the Texas, wonder who would win.
     
  12. lwd

    lwd Ace

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  13. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but this is getting silly.

    The "Twins"? Scharnhorst struck a mine at 15:31 on 11 February 1942 during CERBERUS and was under repair at Kiel until July. Gneisenau struck a mine at 19:15 on 12 February then suffered further damage after striking a submerged wreck when putting into Kiel. She was then bombed on the night of 26/27 February and effectively became a constructive total loss.

    Also, "64,000 Marines" of the "1st and 5th Marine Division"? The 5th Marine Division was activated 21 January 1944.

    And lwd. which German cargo planes were going to fly the 4,200-odd miles from German-occupied territory to Brazil? :rolleyes: BTW, the there and back again voyage for a Typ-IXB UBoote would consume well over two-thirds of her fuel...to get to Belem. Sao Paulo is about 6,000 miles, one way, surfaced. Any committed would have to depend on refueling in Brazilian ports.
     
  14. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I seam to recall Kondors flying to South America. I think they were civilian planes though stopping in Spanish territory and/or North Africa. Passing through neutral Portugese territories might be possible if lagged as a civilian craft and it looks to me like Brazil might possibly be in range from some of the Vichy French African colonies.
     
  15. lordroel

    lordroel Member

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    And what do they carry ore plan to do in Brazil that can aid Brazil.
     
  16. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I don't think the twins would have much of a chance of even breaking into the Atlantic after 41. Too many allied ships equipped with radar as well as carriers and various long range aircraft. IF something like that is to occur the Axis forces have to make their move in 41 or earlier and that will trigger the Monroe Doctrine I suspect.
     
  17. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    It would be a propaganda move for the most part. Would also require the Axis forces to have and hold a coastal airport for while to even get the planning underway. I guess they could act as long range scouts once in Brazil but I suspect they wouldn't last long. Might help the U-boats locate some targets while there though. All in all probably another waste of resources but that's not inconsistent with Hitler's actions.
     
  18. lordroel

    lordroel Member

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    So like Fliegerf├╝hrer Irak of OTL but now called Fliegerf├╝hrer Brazil.
     
  19. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Syndicato Condor of Brazil, a subsidiary of DLH, received two FW 200A-0 pre-production series aircraft. They were not the same as the FW 200V1 prototype, which was rebuilt with extra fuel tankage as the FW 200S (S for Spezial) for the historic Berlin-New York flight. It was destroyed when it ditched in Manila Bay after a flight from Berlin to Tokyo via Basra, Karachi, and Hanoi. Six similar FW 200B airliners were completed, four for a Japanese order and two for Finland, but all were taken over by DLH on the outbreak of war. The 4,000-mile range required for Berlin-New York might enable them to manage the similar trip from Bayonne to Fortaleza...except that could be managed only by carrying an insignificant payload...pretty much the crew and a couple of passengers.

    Bayonne-Dakar-Recife is much more practicable...but then is pretty much limited to neutral cargo. So what would be the point?
     
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  20. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Well they did seem to have a way of finding interesting ways to waste resources. I guess the point was while they could conceivably "support" an Axis Brazil to some extent at least early in the war with something other than a sub it was pretty marginal. Indeed there were never all that many Condors were there? They also had some reliability issues from what I understand as well as not holding up well in combat. And as you mention carrying a pretty minimal payload for the size of the plane and fuel consumed. Thinking about it a bit more I was answering what may have been a rhetorical "could they" question leaving open the "why would they want to" question that is probably more important. Especially since I don't think an axis Brazil was even close to "in the cards".
     

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