What is going on in Washington???

You will have to excuse my ignoance guys. Being over here, and being away for the first week of this, means i know alot lss of whats going on than you guys.

I had not actually heard it mentioned that here was only one gun. Though of cause this could be a clever way of taking attention away from a group.

I only heard on tonights news about the anso demaned, and a warning about children not being safe. I think these are both related to the message left on Saurday?

Whatever or whoever it is, he needs to be stopped.
People, especially now parents, in that area, must be scared out of their wits.

 

Not to worry, Bish- it's been hard enough to keep up over here!
I also just heard about this note and demand. I haven't yet been able to get a clear idea of what's what between the note and any phone calls- the media dosen't seem to know either. But there is that quote floating around- "Your children are not safe anywhere, or at any time".
And a demand for money, although none of the media have been very clear on that. I haven't heard anything about amounts of money...

More stuff that dosen't really seem to make sense. Again, as far as precedents goes, I can't think of any offhand. The Zodiac made demands through his notes, but they were always as far as I remember demands that were related to the notes. He always threatened that if the notes were not published in the manner he wanted, he would kill more people. I can't remember any demands for money or anything like that. Son of Sam... he might have done some kind of threatening or demands, but I can't remember for sure...

I'm actually beginning to move in the direction of some sort of domestic "terrorism"... Maybe a couple people, I think acting alone, who are pissed off at the government.
I guess at this point, until we get more info or until they catch the f*cker, anyone is speculating...

 

You right, its all just speculation.

As i understood it from our news, the threat and demand was made on Saturday. I got the impression it came from the a phone call, though things seem a bit confused.

My mistake. It seems the message was left in a note on Saturday. I assume this was the same note on which he left a phone number.

[ 22 October 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Bish OBE ]

 

Listen carefully when they describe the gun.
In the beginning, they would say: "The shooting was done with the same gun--a .223." I have heard that the rounds he is using are only lightly jacketed, and so, they shatter when they hit. There's no way of tracing the bullet fragments to any specific gun. So, when they say, "It was the same gun--a .223," that does not mean the identical gun. If people were wondering why he chose such a wimpy round, this is probably the reason. Now, when they "analyze" the bullet fragments, they say it was "from the same gun," but, they mean the same kind of gun. The bus driver: the bullet had totally fragmented inside his body, yet, they said it was from the same gun. There could very well be several shooters, then. (Also, on Oct. 3rd; afte the third shooting, he took 1 1/2 hours off, and at 10:30, killed the 4th person.)

 

Actually, Knight, I have heard them very clearly refer to the "same" gun. And you can get enough info to determine the exact gun from bullet fragments. It's a matter of luck- it depends how the bullet fragments. But there are always a good amount of distinctive barrel markings left around the base of the bullet; and it is often possible to find a big enough section of the base to lift these markings. So even from fragments, they can tell if bullets were from the same gun.
Anyone else have any info on this- the bullet identification thing?

I would guess that the killer is using .223 for tow reasons- one being exactly what you mention, the fact that .223 rounds do shatter and can be hard to identify. Also, the rounds are very effective in a controlled situation. I've read that .223 can be problematic on the battlefield because of it's low bullet weight- the bullet can go off course very easily and they are not too good at penetrating hard targets (as compared to 7.62mm, the standard AK round). BUT- the .223 round does massive damage when it does hit. From what I have read, with a .223 there is far more impact trauma and damage than many other rifle rounds.

This is from this morning's NYTimes article on the sniper...

So I'm wondering...
This "rambling context"- what is that about? I wonder if we'll get any info on that?
I would tend to agree (of course, I have no more info than anyone else!) with the assessment that the money demand was added as an afterthought. The money demand just dosen't seem to fit. Even if he did get the money, how would he spend it? That's such an easy way for the cops to get someone. It seems unlike this guy...

(Later)
I checked a bit on the Washington Post as well concerning the letter...
They also mention the sniper's complaint about trying to call the police six times. According to the Post, in the letter the sniper even mentions by name some of the people at the police command center who hung up on him. That looks really bad on the part of the police.

and a bit more...

Again with the "I am God" line. This info from the Post again reminds me a lot of the Zodiac, and would seem to me to point to the nutcase serial killer theory.

And then a bit further...

"this is about more than violence..."
Now this would tend to point away from the serial killer- towards some group with an agenda.



[ 23 October 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

 

Regarding the bullet identification:
I am sure that many of the fragments come from the same gun: that many of the murders were committed with the same weapon. But, do they all come from the same gun? Specifically, October 3rd. I will have to check that.
Lots of info in above post. Will get to that this afternoon.

 

Knight :

have the authorities been able to conclude postively what weapon is being used... ? Here in Oregon I am receiving several different reports, as our cable has been down several times the last weeks. Have heard an AR 15 or AK 74....... or hunting rifle ? Two different vehicles with two sets of shooting teams ? two different rifles with serial numbers in a row but using the same type of ammo ?

E

 

Knight, I think you've got the right idea... I bet identification has been absolutley possible in some of the cases, "likely" or "probable" in others, while impossibel on a couple. I bet also there is some amount (understandably) of jumping to a conclusion. If the cops can figure out that one of the bullets is definetely from a .223, and they find SOME of the same barrel lines (but not enough for a proof-positive connection), I bet they are just going on the assumption that it was the "same" weapon. I think the real trick here would be to find at least one of the bullets that definetely DOES NOT match up. This would really suggest multiple weapons.
Knight, you do bring up yet another good issue that again we have too little info on- how many bullets have fit into which category? In other words, how many of the bullets have been positively ID'ed to the same gun, and how many most likely came from the same gun.

If we could only get the inside info, what the cops are not telling us... cause I'm sure they have evidence they haven't released.
(But then again, more power to the cops in catching this guy. Whatever they feel they need to do, I just hope they can get the guy...)

Erich, on the gun... I'm pretty sure that the AK-74 uses 5.45mm ammo, not 5.56mm (.223). Very similar ammo with a similar effect, but distinguishable (sp?) upon examination.
On the kind of rifle being used, I'm pretty sure that they have not yet gotten any idea. We can kind of narrow it down... .223 is relatively common, but there are some likely candidates. Ar-15, Ruger Mini-14, Galil (I think)... problem is, there are also a good amount of "clone" weapons- I think there's at least 10 companies or so that make an "AR-something" assualt-style rifle in .223. So this aspect, the specific rifle model, could be really tricky, unless of course they catch this as**ole...

I think this is the real reason the info on the specific rifle is so important... If some of the bullets recovered do not entirely match up, we really can't dismiss the idea of multiple teams of shooters. On the other hand, if all the bulets did in fact come from the same weapon, I think it gets a bit far-fetched to imagine two teams of shooters running around passing of a rifle over and over again.

 

The telling events are the shootings of October 3rd, and whether one person actually did murder three people within one hour while driving through rush hour traffic. If the police say that those three rounds all came from the same weapon, then, I would be very surprised. But, then, if evidence showed they came from different weapons, one has to wonder whether or not the police would report this.
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If it is the case that we are dealing with a team of people, then, the investigation takes a much different turn.
Here we have a sniper team, in D.C., at the time Bush is pushing his Homeland Security Bill (or whatever it's called), deciding to invade Iraq, and criticizing Israel's "excessiveness."
At the very least, I would have to say that a sniper team would indicate a political motive--especially under these conditions.
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Assuming, then, that it IS a team, and this team is trying to send a political message, the next question would not be "What is the Message," but, "To whom is this message directed?" The sheer inanity of the phone calls, tarot cards, and letters demanding $10M indicate a non-political intent. Why would a professionally trained team of snipers be leaving tarot cards with the message, "Do not report this to the Press?" This is obviously designed to confuse the public--meaning, that the message is not meant for the public.
Let us assume that the sniper team chose D.C. in order to send a message to certain politicians--politicians who have a lot of influence, who are plugged into the intelligence networks and would know immediately what this is all about. These people may have made their demands months and months ago, and now that they haven't been met, they are carrying through with their threats.
This would explain the strange silentness of many D.C. politicians (although they are a bunch of rat-bag bastards, anyway,) particularly Bush. I mean, if I were president (there's a thought for you...) I'd be giving daily press conferences to assure the people of D.C. that everything was alright. Instead, Bush is out of town (as usual) raising money. Maybe they know already the nature of the sniper attacks. They know they are being pressured to make some foreign policy decision, perhaps; and, because of the nature of this, they cannot tell the public (not that they tell the public anything, anyway...)
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This is only to say that agreeing that this IS a sniper team has some important implications, because, chances are that this isn't the Georgetown Rifle Club out on a bender: it's something state-sponsored.
Oh... and the concept of a radical Islamic Terrorist sniper team... it's not really their MO. I'm willing to put them on the suspect list, but, I'd have a LOT of questions about such a scenario.
Humbly submitted,
The Knight

 

I am just going to throw this out as a long shot, but has anyone considered the little band of supporters of Timothy McVay/Oklahoma bombing....?
It would not surprise me although these shootings have been random, in effect they have totally thrown off the police/authorities to such a degree that government agents are being brought in now. this is what I have heard in my little neck of the woods.
Intersting assortment of possible weapon leads. The news media here has shown two composite drawing of two different long curved barreled AK 74's, one with a small hand mortar attachement. These weapons are short/close range assault weapons, and I beleive would or could have been used on the poor unfortuante woman in the parking lot. As for the earlier shootings I would find this weapon lacking in long range performance. The semi auto AR 15 which I have fired on many an occasion has almost no recoil and is incredibly accurate even with open sites. Configuring the barrel with a muzzelbrake/silencers would definately aid the shooter.

just some thoughts.....

E

 

I don't know, Knight- I don't get the idea that this is state sponsored, or any sort of conspiracy. Haven't seen anything to suggest that. I think it definetely is a "team"- especially considering the new note (see below). But this does not necessarily suggest to me any political motive- serial killers and criminal have worked as teams in the past. Also, I think the "professionally trained snipers" is a big jump, along with assuming there is some kind of "state sponsorship". So far, we know nothing about thier training or background. We also know nothing about the rest of the text in these notes. IMO, I think you may be assuming too much in your theory.
Also, if his messages are not meant for the public, why threaten children? It seems to me like he's loving the media attention, and trying to use it for all it's worth to terrorize people. More than any serial criminal in the past, I think this sniper is distinctly aware of the media and his interactions with them.
For Oct. 3, I guess we should try and come up with a sequence of events- I got the idea that there was more than a hour's time between shootings.
I'm still going on the pair of nutcases... and there do seem to continue to be many similarities between this sniper and the Zodiac. For another one, Zodiac also loved taunting the police, telling them how incompetent they were.

And just a few minutes ago, from CNN...

SO we've got another note, apparently similar to the first. If these notes are for real, along with the Tarot card, I would definetely lean towards a pair of nutcases. The "broken sentences" and "stilted grammar" would suggest to me an under-educated person. Generally, I get the idea that it is hard in such notes to "fake" poor grammar (only my theory...).
And the choice of a Tarot card is wierd... again, suggesting to me a pair of nutcases.

[ 23 October 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

 

Geez ! I meant to say curved ammo-clipped AK 74's, not curved barrel.....

E

 

Curved barrel? I was wondering about that one, Erich... Is the sniper using a krummlauf?

Erich, I can see that theory, the anti-government militia angle. It could mean alot that the sniper is operating in DC- pretty symbolic.
I do see some problems with this theory though- mainly with the tarot card and the letters. These pices of evidence seems to suggest to me the whole idea of playing the media. And this I would think would be more of an individual issue. Also, the poor writing and grammar- if this was some political group, and the sniper is working for them (or as part of them), I would think the messages for the police would have be prepared beforehand and would likely not have many grammar errors. And the demand for money- this part does seem to be an afterthought, and if there was a group working here I would think that their agenda and demands would have been laid out beforehand.
(Obviously, only me theorizing here.)
And the real info we need here is not being released- the news stories have made it seem very surely that both on the Tarot card and both of the notes, that there is a good amount of text that is not being released to the public. This text would probably shed a lot of light on all these theories of ours...

Again, though, on the AK-74- this weapon uses 5.45mm, not .223. And i get the idea that the police are very sure that it is a .223 rifle.
http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-74.html
This page gives some good info on the AK-74.

On the accuracy of the AR-15, and .223 weapons in general, I think this speaks something to the lack of training. Like you say, Erich, the AR-15, and many rifles like it, have very little kick. They are generally lightwieght, and relatively easy to fire. What's more, there are plently of high quality scopes available for these rifles.
Take all these into account, and it's pretty clear to me that this sniper does not necessarily have any serious weapons training. He's choosing an easy weapon to fire; and if the police are even close to correct on the crime scenes, then AT MOST the sniper has been about 100 yards from his target- not even an especially difficult shot, and he generally seems to shoot at people who are not miving quickly. Again, I bring up the hunting comparison for skill level.

On the weapon/bullet identification, finally, we ask for some info and actually find something! The NYTimes (sorry I use this one so much- just my first bookmark in the morning!) ran a piece on bullet/firearm identification in this case and in general...
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Sniper-The-Gun.html
excerpts...

More food for thought...

[ 23 October 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

 

Anywayyyyyyyy back to ww2. Did you guys hear the one about.......

 

Sorry Carl! Not this time!

Many good points, Crazy. I agree with most of them, especially the one about the "skill level" of this sniper. All we really know is that he's a good shot, probably above average, and that he's pretty damned clever because so far he has evaded capture. What does that tell us? It means we can dismiss some very few groups of people from the suspect list. Not very many, though.

 

Not a problem there--im just trying to release the tension a bit.

 

Still wondering if this guy is poart of one team of two or we have two sets of teams out there. If this clown(s)is armed with high powered scope, then anything at 300 yards from a stationary postion whether in his rig or outside of it in pre-set conditions, can be hit, and you don't have to be that good of a shot to do this. From where this persons are firing from and there escape route they surely must have the maps and have pre-determined for quite sometime their locals for attack. I would hate to think that these killers have another 35 plus targets on their list but they probably do, with all the escape routes planned.

E

 

Carl, check again- it may seem unbelievable, but no-one here is arguing about anything!
Shocking!!!
You have any thoughts on this sniper thing?

Andreas, that's the biggest problem with the info (or maybe lack thereof) that we have- it dosen't rule anyone out! The only thing that I do think is becoming really obvious is that there is more than one person invovled, a "team". The quick getaway, the two different handwriting samples... it does seem safe to guess that the sniper is actually probably a shooter and a driver.

I think the skill level issue is also pretty clear in that military or similar training is really not required here. This guy it seems is just taking well-aimed shots, but he also likely has a good amount of time and he can also probably set up in a braced position.
The only major skills I see are in the planning and execution of the whole attack, form set-up until getaway.

Besides that...

 

Erich: McVeigh was never actually linked to any "right Wing" militia group. This got reported somewhere, and pretty soon all the papers were printing it. McVeigh never confessed, either. You want to talk about a story with a lot of holes in it, that's a good one to start with.
(Supposedly, the OKC Bombing was in retaliation against the FBI and BATF for the carnage at Waco.
Yet, even though the Murrah Building was the regional headquarters for the FBI-and the bomb went off well into the morning-not a single FBI agent was killed or injured. All FBI personnel were instructed to come into work late that day (for a reason which has never been explained.) Further, the bomb was placed on the side opposite the FBI offices.)
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Carl: I like WW2 as much as anyone here, but, I do not think I am overstating things when I say that 9-11 and the events there after will turn out to be the biggest events in our lifetimes.
The sniper shootings, like many stories reported over the past year, have a certain air of unbelievability about them, which is why people are eager to talk about it.
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Now, then... a homegrown domestic militia group? Shooting kids, random killings: very, very unlikely. I would have to see some precedent for that.
It's not so much the shootings, but the getaway which identifies this as a professional operation.
A lot of planning has gone into this--it's not the work of Wilbur Cornpone doodling on a napkin at Mickey Dee's. What is more likely: one shooter or more? The lone gunman is more unlikely.
Once you get to a team of people, the range of suspects narrows incredibly.
This HAS to be politically motivated--it has to be. ALL the news for the last year has been about international politics, it's happening in D.C., and the timing in right on the money. If it's a team, then it is not a "team" of escaped mental patients--it's a team of killers most likely representing a larger organization.
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Also: after all these shootings, I find it impossible to believe that nothing at all has been recorded by satellite cameras. Our surveillance technology is very far advanced--there has to be something on film.

 

Hi Crazy--thats not what im talking about--im reading between the lines.