Discussion in 'Post War 1945-1955' started by GRW, Mar 2, 2015.
I don't know. I wasn't there.
Obviously in the legal sense it hasn't been decided has it? From what I recall he wasn't actually charged with rape under Swedish law in any case.
Hold on a minute though. I respect your opinion - and your position- but this academic based her findings on the following:
That's a long time after the war was over, Marshall Aid had kick-started the German economic miracle and the Bundeswehr was on the point of being reformed. And the Police force didn't magically dissolve either. If the occupation forces had been raping at the levels claimed, there's no way we wouldn't have heard about it decades ago, if only from Radio Moscow. They were quick enough to paint the newly-formed Bundeswehr a "fascist" army due to the high levels of senior officers with combat experience in the war, while conveniently forgetting the same applied to the Nationale Volksarmee. They wouldn't have missed the chance to paint the Western Allies as a bunch of mass rapists either.
No-one sensible would claim Allied troops were angels, since war brings out the worst in humans. But to claim they (and Americans in particular) were still committing mass rapes nearly a decade after the war finished is playing the victim card to ridiculous levels IMHO.
Well, let me start with 11,000 documented cases. Say for arguments sake only half the actual number ever made it to court. That's 22,000 rapes in 8 months. These occurred during and directly after the most stressful and uncivilized point in most men's lives. Open war. That's as of Nov, 1945.
Now would you expect the number to go up or down as civilization reasserts itself? As I see it it would drop dramatically.
Thanks Gordon for well founded explanation. Meanwhile I have found information that might support your point of view. There is an interview with Dr. Miriam Gebhardt which indicates that her motive is to present the Third Reich as a victim of Alies. I will review that interview and get back later this afternoon.
Considering the position of women after the end of war is a difficult one. They might have to start a relationship to survive and what is this then called: rape or the woman a whore? And if you get pregnant, the man who brought you flowers, cigarettes and chocolate will change you to someone else. And having a relationship with the enemy soldier often means your own friends and family might abandon you. Calling the "child" a rape once the soldier leaves you might save you in front of the own family but still selling your body, or the soldiers using their position in advantage to getting girlfriend(s), psychologically do they blame the war or what...??
Look forward to that one!
Just a side note as I look through the article again. She is basing her numbers on that 5% during 1945-55. The author is randomly choosing that percentage based on unwed women who have children. Are we to assume that all of those children were results of rape? And as KP just stated, it's a slippery slope for people in post war Germany and labeling. The members here have supported their arguments well and it's decisive at this point. Based on evidence, and it's all about sufficient evidence. There were many sickening events of violence perpetrated by Allied soldiers, but that number is agenda ridden.
Thanks Jr. for useful observations. Furthermore, the author neglects all other potential perpetrators; many healthy German men have returned home eager to have some fun, a large number of foreign forced labourers have been scattered all over the entire Reich too. Many parts of the Third Reich had mixed population: Silesia, In Pomerania, East Prussia, and Warthegau there were many Poles. In Sudetenland and East Bavaria there were many Czech labourers. Armies passed through and other potential perpetrators have remained behind them. Now, it is much more likely that the fathers of these "war children" were some other men delibaeately excluded from the study.
Finally when sufficiently large number is multiplied with a small fraction we still end-up with a large number. Hence, it is very easy to manipulate the results. The author of the "studdy" will find many willing believers though. Not me.
Good point. Definitely not encountered by her research. BTW Did you ever get to look at that interview?
This one goes on the shelf next to Other Losses, I think.
In Carlos D'Este's Patton: A Genius for War, the author quoted General Gaffey, Patton's chief of staff, that while there were no record of soldiers executed for crimes on the Third Army's books, Old Blood and Guts did like to hang cowards and rapists high. If so this is an aspect of the war that hasn't been documented.
A pity she didn't go up to 1960. A case could then be made for Elvis having left a love child in Germany. A weak one, I think. I doubt he would have to rape anybody.
One thing mentioned is the paucity of records but there are records on some things that are related. I wonder if the author looked at any of them? For instance VD rates were of considerable concern and catching it was a punishable offence I believe. Likewise in the immediate post war period there were rules against "fraternization", at least some units appear to have enforced them fairly stricktly. Would the records of those actions exist? My impression is that there may also have been some significant variation from unit to unit which also implies variations in location. I've read that this happened in the Red Army as well with commanders in some areas being very strict with regards to rape or looting or both where in other areas they pretty much ignored it. Any worthwhile study has to at least address these variations. If the study is based on data from a single area the it is imperative that said area be compared at least to some extent to others. At least IMO. My impression is that these were all neglected by the author in question but not having looked closer at the book I can't be sure.
I am reviewing it right now. It is in german language and I will try to write down and translate the most important parts.
I was thinking of that possibility too with a smile on my face: many German (and other) women would like to rape Elvis not the opposite.
In this link she's claiming there were 860,000 rapes by all the occupying forces, and to have medical as well as legal evidence-
In this one, she points out her figures are "reasonably reliable". Sorry, but not in my book.
"There is criticism of your numbers. How reliable are your calculations? Gebhardt: My extrapolations I think the first reasonably reliable figures. I'm in my book, but clearly it clear that it is only an extrapolation and you can get at absolute numbers never, because these rapes have become not recorded. There was neither German authorities had taken all rapes, nor was there on the part of the occupying powers files about it. A soldier do his utmost to attempt to prevent a rape blows up because he had to face tough penalties. Even military court documents of the US Army are therefore only the tip of the iceberg. "
Tamino, is this the one you meant?
"In the mass rape is often out in the field, that the Germans had previously raged much worse. How do you deal with this argument ?
Gebhardt: It is true that there is a hierarchy of crimes in this case. It is still possible that we, 70 years later, to speak today about the other side, the German victims. We as a nation have an awareness of the crimes of the Nazis and the Wehrmacht. Therefore, it is possible, we also talk about the Germans had to learn what sufferings. Basically, also is not written that victory over an aggressor who was Germany, must automatically be associated with sexual violence."
One quick bit talking about post war German VD. Amazingly the officer speaking must not have known about the mass rapes occurring as he brought his wife out to live with him in Germany.
I merged these two threads and re-titled it.
I have read over the interview, and it does seem that Dr. Gebhardt has an agenda. Trying to cast the Third Reich as a victim smacks of distortion of the worst kind. I tend to agree with Gordon's view on he whole topic. Sources, sources, sources.