why is the red star still politicaly correct?

But, the theory is assuming u have all info on your resources.

 

Um..CSP still waiting for your response on the last post.

 

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on the subject of " communism ,what is it good for "

it made the russians beat the germans in WW2 against the odds
it fed one billion chinese
it got rid of drug dealers pretty fast everywhere it went
it got capitalists so scared they started plenty of social programms
it got the dirt poors crushed by churches and goons to hope in a better future
once communism died , guess what , its economic rationnalism
and wage slavery is back on the menu .
in every third world country its the bloodsucking class and the drug barons who are the first ones to join the crusades against the reds .

communism in the west is a joke ,
mostly an academic exercice done by publicly employed poser
a good bolchevick would shoot his own mother for the party
anything less is a fraud


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Actually, it often failed to, certainly under Mao (China's 'Communism' now is really quite far from true Communism), which is kinda the problem...

Bizarrely, if you read through what Communism stands for, and how it is supposed to work, it is really quite close to the ideal version of Christianity, but with God purged out.

 

Stalinism rather than Communism.

 

Well it was not all rosy in YU. When old man (Tito) kicked the bucket and idiots took over things were little dicy. Even though i was only a kid i do remember reforms Milka Planinc tried ( word stabilisation in connection with economy still send's shivers up my spine). Basicly problem In yu was that some parts of the country were economicaly well developed (Slovenia, parts Croatia, Vojvodina, parts of Bosnia and central Serbia) and parts were underdeveloped (Montenegro, parts of Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo...). A such they tried to develop under developed parts on account of well developed parts. This could work but was messed up with unneccesary idiotic decisions (like building FENI...) based on political consideration rather on economical considerations.

Basicly schooling was for free (still is in Slovenia) as well as basic health and social security. All this were/still are financed trough taxation. It's basicly copy of good old Bismarck's system. I know that this is much easier to do in country of 18 mil. (YU) and country of 2 mil. (SLO) than in much bigger countries, but main difference is that europeans tend to think about health, schooling and social security as public services (economily benifficient in the long run) and current US mentality tend to think about them as bussines (that why around 1/2 of US population doesn't have health insurance).

Basicly reds did try to make life better, if they succeded it depends from point of view. Communists also managed to hold off nationalistc feeling which were result of ww2 trough "fraternity and unity" (bratstvo i jedinstvo). Problem was when thins started to go terribly wrong shit floated to the surface (as ussual) and poeple had to chose sides.

 

As i heard,(not 100% shure) Sweden got best social policy in the EU,and problably in the world allso.It is capitalist country,but they proowed that good social program can hold.So lets get back to subject.Many of u look on communism as bigg red monster,in western movies communism put on equal with fashism,so propaganda done good job on ur side allso.We had communism,we had TITO as life time dictator,and we where really happy.

 

Yep, the Yugos were so happy with everything that as soon as they could do so they began killing each other. Ethnic cleansing shows just how happy and content people were. I assume that all that hate just spontaneously occured when people obtained some freedom and before that they were filled with love and brotherhood.
Do I have it right?

 

Grieg
Yugo was a car
http://www.chiron.co.yu/yugo.mpg

 

Grieg, surely you agree that it was the "collapse of communism" and not communism itself which caused violence and rioting to spread in Yugoslavia, Eastern Bloc and the former USSR after the collapse of the Soviet Union...

When you dismantle a system so rapidly, as was done in 1991... It seems inevitable that there will be civil disorder and a rise in crime... I'm sure that "Love and Brotherhood" isn't overly abundant in many parts of the USA (as with any country), you yourself have spoken many times of the race friction... So if you took away the law enforcing bodies in America too, you'd probably get a situation akin to 1990's Yugoslavia...

Whether or not communism was a good thing... The "collapse of communism" was certainly bad... In many places it was chaotic and violent... If it was a little less sudden perhaps, and with a bit more social control perhaps countries like Yugoslavia could have maintained stability...

 

My comments were in response to this statement:

There is no doubt that the breakdown of the tight control allowed the violence and ethnic hatred to propogate but it didn't create it. It existed already and was only held in check by a powerful police state.
In the US we don't have nor need a powerful police state to prevent ethnic cleansing. We have crime and we need police to help keep order however their is much less ethnic conflict than Hollywood and political types (who thrive on class and race conflict) would have you believe.

 

whoa ,jeagure ....i think you better re check some data ...the communists under mao and stalin created the worst man made famines in world history..i mean crop failures because of drought ,blight, locusts , ect have always happened ..only the communists have created famines out of thin air that killed tens of millions of their own peasants, their hair brained farm mismanagement at gun point is one of the most hidieous crimes ever perpatrated in histry imo....i think also it could be argued that stalin killed as many russian soldiers as the germans did ..his murder of all his brightest field grade officers , leaving his huge army with out a head ,ignoreing his excelent intelligence network prior to barbarosa ,ordering the civillians of stalingrad and leningrad to die within their doomed cities .letting political officers help makeing tactical decisions....ect ect...then , as you pointed out jeag a good bolshevic would shoot his own mother for the cause (or child) that is another horror of communism its souless ,cold eyed ,humorless , paranoid hypocricy ...truley , anyone who would denounce or kill his own family for any kind of ISM is something less than human ...in fact iirc gorbachvs last ditch effort to revive the wretched wheezing scabby monster born in 1917 was something called " communism with a human face "..too little ,too late...may stalin ,mao, and polpot roast in hell forever .. lol silly me , they prolly all have huge front offices with panoramic views
n

 

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yep , major ! the bolcheviks , stalinians , maoist and other shining path believers have no great concerns for individuals , the good ones are totaly dedicated , it make them very dangerous ,
as all true fanatics are . on some crisis issues, it make them efficients !
to call any college kid carrying a red star a communist is the same as calling
any kid carrying a pentangle necklace a proponet of child sacrifice
they are just wankers !

on the subject of healthcare , I saw a table of health spending as % of GDP
most contries from swisterland ,sweden to turkey, argentina spend roughly
8% of GDP on healthcare the glaring exception is the USA with 16% !!!
( I blame the lawyers )


GM , ford are saying that their healthcare program are handicaping them , which is OK as excuses goes but ford europe and definitly ford australia are doing good business paying taxes for a public healthcare .
I'm not familiar with the japannese situation but here , they pay taxes and cream the profits !



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I split off the debate on healthcare, it can now be found here:
http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=116326

Carry on gents...

 

Grieg,i must say that u dont hawe clue what caused war in Ex Yu,but i will tell u that comunism is not responsible for that.Last war had nationals,religius,and otther reasones to ignite the flare,communist r ateist,they dont bolive in god,ortodox,catolic,r muslims,and we all was Yugoslavians.When we go 50y back,in WWII,u can explore a bit what heapened on NDH and bosnia by Ustasha,and u will se that got historical background allso.

Now lets talk about communism in Yugoslavia,how EX Yu manage to be so strong Economicaly,and politicaly in that short time after WWII? Simple,they used briliant plan.They did not pay workers,and allso they did not forced them to work for free,it is on volontears base.Whole country worked hard on construction yards,roads,etc practicly for free,and it was honor to do it! It was allso honor to go in army,with usual bigg celebration (in that time 18y was age for Army,so basicly,body become man).U can go in any colegde u pick,if ur grades r good enouht,money was not matther.Free apartmants and houses from ur company,based on some concurs,workers with harders life condition get apartmans for free,etc,etc.

 

The one who doesn't have a clue is you sinassa, at least when it comes to comprehending my posts. You have totally misunderstood my comments. I didn't say that Communism caused the ethnic and religious hatred that exists in the former Yugoslavia. I was saying that this hatred was there before the breakup of Yugoslavia and was only suppressed by the tight control that the state kept on the people. Once that control was lessened the hatred that had always existed manifested itself more openly. I doubt any serious political scientist or historian would dispute that assertion.
Beyond that point minor I have little interest or knowledge of the former Yugoslavia or the various ethnic and religious enmities that have existed there over the centuries. Personally I don't think that what the Serbs or Croats or Bosnians or Albanians do to each other will have that much of an effect on the rest of the world. Some people feel differently and want to go around righting every wrong they perceive in the world.

 

Removed by Moderator

 

Stating openly who does and does not "have a clue" is completely irrelevant and unhelpful to the debate. Instead of pointing out that your opponent does not seem to understand you, try to make your point more clear so that he does.

Please read each other's posts carefully and do not let your personal involvement or attachment to a subject (be it because of your religious or political beliefs or your nationality) get in the way of a civil debate.

The starting point in the current discussion is this post:

In my opinion, it is clear that the nationalist and religious tensions in Yugoslavia did not disappear during Communism - apparent from their reemerging once Communism collapsed - but neither were they caused by it. In other words, these tensions are completely unrelated to Communism as such.

 

Because the common public no longer remembers the things that happened under the Red Star as they do those that happened under the Swastika?

Makes sense to me in some strange way.

Or else we're all being brain washed by the original Sputnik which is still active because it was powered by the first ever solar panels and made entirely of gold. :kill:

 

That's it! Soviets were geniouses. :smok:

Basicly poeple have short memories (except south Balcans and Middle east). For example most of South american population are not exactly trilled about US considering that US supported "democraties" like Pinochet, Somoza, Argentinian & Brasilian generals, Noriega and other graduates of School of Americas in Fort Benning.